Comments on: Mac OS X Spreadsheet Roundup: A Few Excel, The Rest Should Be Shot http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html I've been observing personal computing behavior for a long time, and now I have some things to say. Here are my two cents about computing, music, software, and related topics. Sat, 09 May 2026 11:50:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: rleary http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-546 rleary Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:14:28 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-546 On Mars, we realized long ago what a trap that philosophy is, and actively discourage winning as a goal unto itself. To us, the goals are simple: Work to optimize yourself, your family, and your society. Optimize the products of your body and mind. Look for problems that you can solve, and try to solve them. Look for needs that are unmet, and try to meet them. Avoid belittling others merely to make yourself look better. With these behaviors, you will be successful, and you won’t have trampled on the worthy products of other beings intentionally or unfairly. If the best ideas and products are allowed to be known, they will be successful, and their success will lead to even better ideas and products. This process will speed the whole course of human progress, and will benefit more people Not so sappy. Wish we could get the Gov. to think this way. On Mars, we realized long ago what a trap that philosophy is, and actively discourage winning as a goal unto itself. To us, the goals are simple: Work to optimize yourself, your family, and your society. Optimize the products of your body and mind. Look for problems that you can solve, and try to solve them. Look for needs that are unmet, and try to meet them. Avoid belittling others merely to make yourself look better. With these behaviors, you will be successful, and you won’t have trampled on the worthy products of other beings intentionally or unfairly. If the best ideas and products are allowed to be known, they will be successful, and their success will lead to even better ideas and products. This process will speed the whole course of human progress, and will benefit more people

Not so sappy. Wish we could get the Gov. to think this way.

]]> By: Leland http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-545 Leland Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:35:27 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-545 Thanks, everyone, for your support and ideas. One reader wrote me privately with a tip not only about Quantrix, which two of the readers mentioned, but also an open source Mac OS X package called FlexiSheet, which apparently is modeled on Quantrix. Unfortunately, FlexiSheet's development was abandoned several years ago, though there's always a chance that some brilliant Cocoa programmer will pick up the source and flesh it out. I tried it briefly tonight, and it's definitely usable. Like Quantrix, FlexiSheet borrows the Lotus Improv notion of 3D data modeling, so it takes some getting used to. But I plan to play with it some more and add a bit about it to the article. I've also downloaded a trial version of Quantrix, though I'm loathe to spend $300 on such a product no matter how good it is. To G-Man and anyone else who wonders what I have against Excel... You're right, I should take a moment and write up Excel's pros and cons as I did for the others. Bottom line for me personally, however, is that Excel is out of the question. This has nothing to do with 1994, but everything to do with 2001, when on September 6, the Bush administration announced that it would no longer press charges against Microsoft for its illegal monopoly behavior of the previous decade. If anyone needs a memory refresher, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft" rel="nofollow">the Wikipedia writeup</a> is a reasonably good, unbiased statement of the facts in the case. Microsoft was found guilty of violating U.S. antitrust law in November 1999, and has never been punished for those crimes. In fact, with Windows XP and now Vista, Microsoft has taken actions to further tighten its stranglehold on the U.S. computer market for operating system and office productivity software. They have not given up hopes of winning the market for server-based software, and are using their desktop monopoly and the vast, illegal monopoly profits they receive from it to gradually gain advantages in all the important server-based functionalities that matter: web, database, collaboration, communications, and media. I happen to believe it's important to avoid Microsoft products as a matter of conscience and as a way of contributing in whatever tiny way I can to punishing a company the government has refused to do for us all. Microsoft has plenty of influential tech writers and fans willing to sing its praises at every opportunity. I try to sing the praises of alternative products. There... it's as succinct as I can put it. To me, Microsoft products are irrelevant--or should be--and I have little tolerance for the views of those who think Microsoft should be allowed any leadership role in information technology. The company and its leaders are an example of business practices that should be scorned, not cheered. That's how we treat cheating and lying on Mars, and it's how I hope human beings start to behave. Even though Bill Gates is no longer in charge, he's still a scoundrel and spokesman for the company, continuing to lie about competitors just to gain advantage. Steve Ballmer is probably worse than Gates. The records of these two are very clear to anyone who bothers to look. The Earthly notion that success is good no matter what is poisonous to human behavior. We tell our kids things like "It's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game that counts", and then turn around and act like it's a notion you can discard when you grow up. No. Wrong. Kids see the hypocrisy in adult behavior, and humans need to ask themselves if they really want everyone in the world to behave as if winning is the ultimate goal... That being successful actually does justify the means. On Mars, we realized long ago what a trap that philosophy is, and actively discourage winning as a goal unto itself. To us, the goals are simple: Work to optimize yourself, your family, and your society. Optimize the products of your body and mind. Look for problems that you can solve, and try to solve them. Look for needs that are unmet, and try to meet them. Avoid belittling others merely to make yourself look better. With these behaviors, you will be successful, and you won't have trampled on the worthy products of other beings intentionally or unfairly. If the best ideas and products are allowed to be known, they will be successful, and their success will lead to even better ideas and products. This process will speed the whole course of human progress, and will benefit more people. Yeah, I know... Heavy. Sappy. Naive. Hey, I guess that's just how we like things here on Mars. :-) Cheers, Leland Thanks, everyone, for your support and ideas. One reader wrote me privately with a tip not only about Quantrix, which two of the readers mentioned, but also an open source Mac OS X package called FlexiSheet, which apparently is modeled on Quantrix. Unfortunately, FlexiSheet’s development was abandoned several years ago, though there’s always a chance that some brilliant Cocoa programmer will pick up the source and flesh it out. I tried it briefly tonight, and it’s definitely usable. Like Quantrix, FlexiSheet borrows the Lotus Improv notion of 3D data modeling, so it takes some getting used to. But I plan to play with it some more and add a bit about it to the article. I’ve also downloaded a trial version of Quantrix, though I’m loathe to spend $300 on such a product no matter how good it is.

To G-Man and anyone else who wonders what I have against Excel… You’re right, I should take a moment and write up Excel’s pros and cons as I did for the others. Bottom line for me personally, however, is that Excel is out of the question. This has nothing to do with 1994, but everything to do with 2001, when on September 6, the Bush administration announced that it would no longer press charges against Microsoft for its illegal monopoly behavior of the previous decade. If anyone needs a memory refresher, the Wikipedia writeup is a reasonably good, unbiased statement of the facts in the case.

Microsoft was found guilty of violating U.S. antitrust law in November 1999, and has never been punished for those crimes. In fact, with Windows XP and now Vista, Microsoft has taken actions to further tighten its stranglehold on the U.S. computer market for operating system and office productivity software. They have not given up hopes of winning the market for server-based software, and are using their desktop monopoly and the vast, illegal monopoly profits they receive from it to gradually gain advantages in all the important server-based functionalities that matter: web, database, collaboration, communications, and media. I happen to believe it’s important to avoid Microsoft products as a matter of conscience and as a way of contributing in whatever tiny way I can to punishing a company the government has refused to do for us all. Microsoft has plenty of influential tech writers and fans willing to sing its praises at every opportunity. I try to sing the praises of alternative products.

There… it’s as succinct as I can put it. To me, Microsoft products are irrelevant–or should be–and I have little tolerance for the views of those who think Microsoft should be allowed any leadership role in information technology. The company and its leaders are an example of business practices that should be scorned, not cheered. That’s how we treat cheating and lying on Mars, and it’s how I hope human beings start to behave. Even though Bill Gates is no longer in charge, he’s still a scoundrel and spokesman for the company, continuing to lie about competitors just to gain advantage. Steve Ballmer is probably worse than Gates. The records of these two are very clear to anyone who bothers to look.

The Earthly notion that success is good no matter what is poisonous to human behavior. We tell our kids things like “It’s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game that counts”, and then turn around and act like it’s a notion you can discard when you grow up. No. Wrong. Kids see the hypocrisy in adult behavior, and humans need to ask themselves if they really want everyone in the world to behave as if winning is the ultimate goal… That being successful actually does justify the means.

On Mars, we realized long ago what a trap that philosophy is, and actively discourage winning as a goal unto itself. To us, the goals are simple: Work to optimize yourself, your family, and your society. Optimize the products of your body and mind. Look for problems that you can solve, and try to solve them. Look for needs that are unmet, and try to meet them. Avoid belittling others merely to make yourself look better. With these behaviors, you will be successful, and you won’t have trampled on the worthy products of other beings intentionally or unfairly. If the best ideas and products are allowed to be known, they will be successful, and their success will lead to even better ideas and products. This process will speed the whole course of human progress, and will benefit more people.

Yeah, I know… Heavy. Sappy. Naive. Hey, I guess that’s just how we like things here on Mars. :-)

Cheers,
Leland

]]> By: david moore http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-544 david moore Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:13:54 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-544 The one thing I need from an Excel replacement is the ability to filter data. Only Neo/Open office has this feature, and I agree, they're both just "butt ugly" to work with...so back to Excel until something new comes along. Thanks fopr the piece. DM The one thing I need from an Excel replacement is the ability to filter data. Only Neo/Open office has this feature, and I agree, they’re both just “butt ugly” to work with…so back to Excel until something new comes along.
Thanks fopr the piece.
DM

]]> By: Dave http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-543 Dave Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:51:16 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-543 Good write up. I have high hopes for Tables too, and use it quite a bit. I use NeoOffice for the heavy lifting, as I refuse to feed The Beast From Redmond. I will say that NeoO is dog slow in opening up huge excel files. Here's hoping the Tables folks continue the good work! Lean, mean and fast. Good write up. I have high hopes for Tables too, and use it quite a bit. I use NeoOffice for the heavy lifting, as I refuse to feed The Beast From Redmond. I will say that NeoO is dog slow in opening up huge excel files.

Here’s hoping the Tables folks continue the good work! Lean, mean and fast.

]]> By: Dave Dlugos http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-542 Dave Dlugos Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:00:10 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-542 The development of spreadsheet technology has been severely held back to the stone ages by the dominance of Excel. There exists an advanced spreadsheet (Trapeze), last released in 1988, that still runs circles around Excel -- even when running on my antique Centris 650. It is getting hard to interface with anything thou. I hope that getting OS 7.6.1 to run under OS X will solve that. dave The development of spreadsheet technology has been severely held back to the stone ages by the dominance of Excel.

There exists an advanced spreadsheet (Trapeze), last released in 1988, that still runs circles around Excel — even when running on my antique Centris 650. It is getting hard to interface with anything thou. I hope that getting OS 7.6.1 to run under OS X will solve that.

dave

]]> By: G-Man http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-541 G-Man Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:06:21 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-541 Interesting article, although it becomes clear very soon that you seen to have something against using Excel, as if it's beneath you somehow. Noticeably, you didn't even include it side-by-side in your list of spreadsheets with the pros and cons listed. You posted the article already assuming that Excel shouldn't be used. Why? Why not list what you think the pros and cons of Excel are? Is it perhaps that Excel meets most of your document needs for a spreadsheet app, but you just have a religious aversion to using it because of who makes it? The attitudes expressed here are very vintage "Mac Pirate vs. Windoze hegemony" ("must not use an MS product...fight the power...must look for alternatives from Mac-friendly developers..."). I'm afraid these attitudes are older and more stale than Mariner Calc and some of the other spreadsheet apps you complain about. Since Excel does so many of the things in your list of must-have features, and since opening Excel files and exporting Excel files is so important to you...well, then....why not just use Excel? You've spent a lot of time writing this article when you could've been just getting your spreadsheet work done. Your review here has come across as rather slanted against MS Excel, somewhat gushing about two apps that you've apparently used somewhat (Mesa and Tables), and just indifferent towards several other apps that you clearly must not have used for more than five minutes each, judging from the fact that you couldn't find more than one good thing to say about them. The time has come to put away the 1994-era attitudes and just get our work done. It's not a religion, it's a computer. It's a tool to get work done. Since you admit that Excel is so firmly entrenched on the Mac, since even before Windows, why treat it as if somehow there's something wrong with that? If you have any trouble with learning how to do something in Excel, the resources online (for free) are limitless and there are millions of users (PC and Mac) who can share secrets. Not so for these other upstart apps. Instead of spending so much energy trying to avoid MS products because they're not 'elegant' enough or 'refined' enough for you, why not just embrace them, master them, and get your work done? Great website layout, by the way... Interesting article, although it becomes clear very soon that you seen to have something against using Excel, as if it’s beneath you somehow. Noticeably, you didn’t even include it side-by-side in your list of spreadsheets with the pros and cons listed. You posted the article already assuming that Excel shouldn’t be used. Why? Why not list what you think the pros and cons of Excel are? Is it perhaps that Excel meets most of your document needs for a spreadsheet app, but you just have a religious aversion to using it because of who makes it?

The attitudes expressed here are very vintage “Mac Pirate vs. Windoze hegemony” (”must not use an MS product…fight the power…must look for alternatives from Mac-friendly developers…”). I’m afraid these attitudes are older and more stale than Mariner Calc and some of the other spreadsheet apps you complain about.

Since Excel does so many of the things in your list of must-have features, and since opening Excel files and exporting Excel files is so important to you…well, then….why not just use Excel? You’ve spent a lot of time writing this article when you could’ve been just getting your spreadsheet work done. Your review here has come across as rather slanted against MS Excel, somewhat gushing about two apps that you’ve apparently used somewhat (Mesa and Tables), and just indifferent towards several other apps that you clearly must not have used for more than five minutes each, judging from the fact that you couldn’t find more than one good thing to say about them.

The time has come to put away the 1994-era attitudes and just get our work done. It’s not a religion, it’s a computer. It’s a tool to get work done. Since you admit that Excel is so firmly entrenched on the Mac, since even before Windows, why treat it as if somehow there’s something wrong with that? If you have any trouble with learning how to do something in Excel, the resources online (for free) are limitless and there are millions of users (PC and Mac) who can share secrets. Not so for these other upstart apps. Instead of spending so much energy trying to avoid MS products because they’re not ‘elegant’ enough or ‘refined’ enough for you, why not just embrace them, master them, and get your work done?

Great website layout, by the way…

]]> By: Bill Hornbuckle http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-540 Bill Hornbuckle Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:41:53 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-540 I think you totally missed the boat on your conclusions. I am a long time Mac and WIndows user, and a major spreadsheet person. I'm a geophysicist for a major Oil Co., and I've tried Mesa, Mariner Calc, Lotus 123, the other weird Lotus spreadsheet relational thing, etc, etc. Excel does everything. It doesn't change because it really does everything. It is what people want. And NeoOffice does it almaost as well for a lot less money (I donate $50 a year because I too support OpenSource). And it doesn't install all the Microsoft reminder viruses and other crap that come when you put anything MS on your machine. It was very slow on my old TiBook, but it runs fine on my new black Macbook. I love NeoOffice. I think Excel DID win the spreadsheet game, and I think giving people what they want only cheaper is a winning strategy, and it's even better because it isn't MS and doesn't contaminate your machine and run a bunch of hidden daemons like MS does. So, I deleted Office off my machine, I'm living with NeoOffice and loving it. I am looking forward to seeing what Apple's Numbers looks like because it might be cool too. Bill I think you totally missed the boat on your conclusions. I am a long time Mac and WIndows user, and a major spreadsheet person. I’m a geophysicist for a major Oil Co., and I’ve tried Mesa, Mariner Calc, Lotus 123, the other weird Lotus spreadsheet relational thing, etc, etc. Excel does everything. It doesn’t change because it really does everything. It is what people want. And NeoOffice does it almaost as well for a lot less money (I donate $50 a year because I too support OpenSource). And it doesn’t install all the Microsoft reminder viruses and other crap that come when you put anything MS on your machine. It was very slow on my old TiBook, but it runs fine on my new black Macbook. I love NeoOffice. I think Excel DID win the spreadsheet game, and I think giving people what they want only cheaper is a winning strategy, and it’s even better because it isn’t MS and doesn’t contaminate your machine and run a bunch of hidden daemons like MS does. So, I deleted Office off my machine, I’m living with NeoOffice and loving it. I am looking forward to seeing what Apple’s Numbers looks like because it might be cool too.
Bill

]]> By: Eric http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-539 Eric Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:39:24 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-539 Perhaps the best take on spreadsheets ever was Lotus Improv (from the NeXTStep days). It lived on in various forms, and now there is Quantrix Modeler (a re-implentation as a cross platform java application). Still exellent, but pricey and java. http://www.quantrix.com/ Make this a real Mac OS X native application, and knock the price down, it would sell 100's of thousands of copies. Perhaps the best take on spreadsheets ever was Lotus Improv (from the NeXTStep days). It lived on in various forms, and now there is Quantrix Modeler (a re-implentation as a cross platform java application). Still exellent, but pricey and java.

http://www.quantrix.com/

Make this a real Mac OS X native application, and knock the price down, it would sell 100’s of thousands of copies.

]]> By: PV http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-538 PV Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:31:26 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-538 Thanks for the great overview on spreadsheets. About your opening comment on Mac software: I'm the only Mac user in a Windows organization. I drool over the Contact Management options on a PC. Mac versions aren't even close -- most are in the technical dark ages in comparison to their PC counterparts. There are many other areas relating to communications where Macs trail. Even if there were (or are) Mac equivalents, they are usually not be compatible with the PC systems. My Mac compensates for the loss in different ways so that the PC users drool over my PowerBook, i.e., no virus/malware problems and efficiency in developing and handling media. Yet there is no doubt about PC advantages in software. Thanks for the great overview on spreadsheets.

About your opening comment on Mac software: I’m the only Mac user in a Windows organization. I drool over the Contact Management options on a PC. Mac versions aren’t even close — most are in the technical dark ages in comparison to their PC counterparts. There are many other areas relating to communications where Macs trail. Even if there were (or are) Mac equivalents, they are usually not be compatible with the PC systems. My Mac compensates for the loss in different ways so that the PC users drool over my PowerBook, i.e., no virus/malware problems and efficiency in developing and handling media. Yet there is no doubt about PC advantages in software.

]]> By: David http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2007/03/mac-os-x-spreadsheet-roundup-only-a-few-excel.html#comment-537 David Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:13:16 +0000 http://www.musingsfrommars.org/?p=1589#comment-537 One other spreadsheet that derives from the old Lotus Improv days is Quantrix. However, it's also expensive $400 US I think. One other spreadsheet that derives from the old Lotus Improv days is Quantrix. However, it’s also expensive $400 US I think.

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